First off, special thanks to former Charter swimmer Bruce Deakyne for providing the program to quickly and efficiently calculate All-State swimmers based on Power Points.
Keep in mind, the title of these posts is crucial - they are "pre"-previews because so much can change at both prelims and finals. After prelims we can get a better guess at who will stand to score well for All-State, but until then, we don't know who will end up in the top 8 in each event, so we can't tell who can eve score for All-State yet. Coupled with that, again, I remind that the times used for psych sheets (and these calculations) are not necessarily the swimmers' best times, but rather, the best times these swimmers have had in high school meets this season. So, assuming that everyone is ready to go for the state meet, things could change due to that as well. But, all in all, this should give swimmers some idea where they stand in the all-state race.
On that note, as always, I would like to open up for debate the all-state selection process, and get people's thoughts on that if you feel so inclined. Should we only count the state meet? Should we also consider finishers 9-16 and give the top 8"bonus" points as well? Should we keep the system as it is? Any thoughts, so long as they remain respectful and appropriate are always welcome.
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I believe that the criteria for all state, and especially swimmer of the year should be changed. Just relying on power points is not a truly fair way to do it. I believe that placement in a given race should be taken into consideration as well as power points. Last year Tanner Kurz got swimmer of the year, and Cliff Gordon beat him in 100 fly! Cliff had two first place finishes, and Tanner only had one, but because the event that Tanner won had more power points, he was swimmer of the year. I also believe that top 16 should be considered for all state. There are a number of instances where a kid with two 8-16th place finishes had more power points than a kid with one top 8 finish.
ReplyDeleteI think that some bonus points should be given for placement in a race. For example, 1st place could get 10 bonus points then 2nd place 7, 3 place 6 etc. on down to 1 point for 8th place. At least that rewards finish as well as power points. I also think it would be nice for top 16 to be considered although I don't think that will happen since Delaware is such a small state and for a lot of events there are only 23 or 24 swimmers entered. They should probably review the power point system and be sure it is rewarding people equally - it seems like some of the distance events don't get as many power points as some of the sprints.
ReplyDeleteplacement points don't make sense. If someone wins the 100 free with a 49.50, then it's clear that the competition was dismal that year (49.5 wouldn't win at an age group meet). But if someone gets second in the 200 free with a 1:40.00, it’s clear that the competition was tough (considering this a national cut).
ReplyDeleteNow - assuming both scenarios above, the placement-point concept would award bonus points to the dismal 49.5 and effectively penalize a potential all-american time of 1:40.00.
I can see the argument for removing the power point system, however your proposal is moving in the wrong direction.
I understand your point, but this is not a "National" meet. It is Delaware High School State Championships. The power points system has not kept up with the advances in stroke mechanics..example - look at the breast strokers today. They are going much faster than ten years ago. It is forcing kids to choose events they may not be able to win but know they will get more power points. Wouldn't it be better to have the swimmers racing for the win instead of swimming for All-State? Eliminating the power points system will also promote those swimmers that are really good in more than 1 event. It's a great time nonetheless!
ReplyDeleteI would venture to say that anyone who doesn't like the power point system really doesn't know too much about swimming at all. The reason the power point system looks flawed in the distance events is because most of the swimmers in DE that swim the 500 are exceptionally SLOW. Power points level the playing field and allow comparison between strokes. A boy (16) that goes 49.0 in his 100 free earns 683 power points. This time is equivalent to another kid that goes 54.42 in the 100 back. Awarding points for placement wouldn't really show who the BEST swimmer is. It would show us all which swimmer strategically picked the easiest events to get first place. Theoretically we could have a swimmer of the year with pathetic times if we awarded points by rank. The system is not flawed; your understanding of the system is flawed.
ReplyDeletePower points prevent that from happening.
http://usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=834&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en
Keep one thing in mind, however, regarding power points. To my knowledge, Delaware is not using USA Swimming Power Point times, but rather the NISCA power point times from 1999. I'm not sure that abolishing the power point system all together would be a great idea, after all, it has been the best attempt to compare events, which can be like comparing apples to oranges. That being said, a few ideas...
ReplyDeleteWe could attempt to pool together historical results from, say, the past 10 Delaware State Meets, and essentially create our own system based on that, so that it rewards swimmers on a more logical level - compared to other swimmers within the state.
We could also add a human element. As much as that opens us up to biases and flaws with people putting their ideas forward, I think that in a case such as last year, we see that the Power Points system is certainly not flawless.
On a side note, I see a bit of a comparison maybe to the BCS in College Football. To my understanding, that attempts to rank teams based on win quality, and numerous other factors, all without the benefit of a "human" element, and I feel like we hear so much complaining about that system (I know it is a rough comparison, but it shows that we, as people, do not trust computers to do work like this for us).
I may try to ask around and see if I can't find out how other states determine all-state swimmers, and maybe do a post comparing different systems, if they exist. If you know of anything other systems, do let me know. Thanks.
I don't think anyone would want to just use placement at States as the sole criteria for being placed on the "All State Team". I think people are just saying there should be a little reward for getting first place. People would still try to get great times to get a lot of power points since that would account for 90% of their total score. For example someone who does a 51 in the 100 fly would get 139 power points and if they win the event they get a 10 point bonus. The 10 points only account for less than 10% of their total points (149) so the time is still rewarded to a much greater extent than the placement but placement would have a slight reward to encourage kids to push it and try to win both of their events. This is just my interpretation and there is probably no perfect system in determining All State. I would love to hear how other states determine their All State teams.
ReplyDeleteFrom a few searches, other states do appear to use a system more based on placement than anything else. For example, Georgia splits into two meets, an AAAAA meet and an AAAA, AAA, AA, and A meet. They combine all of the times from the two meets to determine the top 8 times. From there, the top 2 get first team, 3-4 get second team, 5-6 get third team, and 7-8 get honorable mention. Athletes are only chosen for their highest finish (so, if you get first in one event and 4th in another, you only make first team). With Georgia being a much bigger state with a lot more swimmers, it is a little different in that you almost must be all-state quality to get to the top 8. However, I still feel like a power point system helps in comparing events. Also, as far as giving a placement bonus, I would argue that it should maybe only be for first place, seeing as if it continues down the line, last year's results, as an example, would have remained (probably) unchanged.
ReplyDeleteI like Jeff's assessment and approach. We have been attending swim meets for 10 years and none of the local "high point" meets use the NISCA power point system to judge the order of how the best swimmers finish or teams finish for that matter.
ReplyDeleteIf Delaware is in fact using a power point table from 1999 it probably is time to adjust it. USA swimming reviews their time standards every few years and often makes changes to time standards for different events. I don't know if this makes sense but I looked up the time standards for Junior Nationals and it looks as though a 21.59 in the 50 free would get you to Junior Nationals and would earn you 131 power points if you swam that time at Delaware High School States. On the other hand a 58.69 in the 100 breast or a 51.19 in the 100 fly would get you to Junior Nationals and would earn you 137 power points if you swam that time at the Delaware High School Championships. It just seems to me that achieving a Junior National time is a great feat and should be rewarded with an equal number of power points. Has it been confirmed that Delaware does in fact use the Power Point table that is listed on your blog? If so I do think it's time to review it and make some changes.
ReplyDeleteI cannot say for sure that those Power Points are what in fact are used, I have not seen anything published saying so. However, to my knowledge, they are what are used, as they have been accurate in showing the swimmers chosen for All-State; if anyone does know for sure the All-State policy, I would love to hear it.
ReplyDeleteUsing NISCA PPTs to calculate All-State teams for the past 4 years hasn't caused a single deviation from the actual teams. It might not be the standard DE uses, but it's very close.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind anyone with a 1st place automatically makes 1st team, 2nd place -> 2nd team, 3rd -> 3rd.
The Cliff/Tanner thing happened in 2006 as well. Grady Carter beat Chris Brady in the 50 free, but Chris was Swimmer of the Year. Keep in mind, Grady's "best" event was the 50 free, where as Chris's was the 100 fly. Just because one swimmer beats another doesn't mean he's "better"; it only means he is better in that event. That's probably why Power Points are still used.
Other states (such as CO) have 2 swimmers of the year. One by the "press" done using points, and another by coaches via voting.
Overall, if one change needs to be made, it's that 9-16 should get PPTs too.
What I read here is a need to slow down or over ride what makes our spots the best....Top SPEED!
ReplyDeleteA freestyler is not competing with the breast stroker for points but the speed of other freestylers who have established what fast is. Thus a scale using points for the freestyle is recorded.....against other freestylers. A pyramid.
Same for the other 3 strokes...
**Freestyle = 50, 100, 200, 500, Free Relay & Medley relay
**Breast = 100 and medley relay
Now which stroke above has more HS swimmers pushing the envelope of speed (in HS)???? free! is the easiest stroke to be successful in...that is why 18.50 seconds gets 200 pts and a swim of 22.00 gets 123 pts. A ton of swimmers have challenged/defined speed (between 18.50 and 22.00) for freestyle and mechanically its a natural stroke.
1st place in a slow finals is rewarding luck or miss fortune...not speed or outstanding performance.
The point system is black and white and the best selection criteria. The fastest and best always wins. This keeps politics out.
If you want a different winner for Top swimmer and all-state team then just vote for them. Cut the swimming and its hard work out.
Tanner put to rest the argument rergarding breast and IM getting more points...Eric and Clifton great meet. Fast Fast Fast!!!
ReplyDeleteLook, we all know that most meets don't use the NISCA power points system for awarding points to swimmers. This is Delaware High School States, not Nationals. The kids are swimming against one another and it should not matter if it is a weak year or not. If a swimmer finishes in 3rd place of the breast in 2005 than a swimmer finishing in 3rd place in 2010 should get the same awarded points. We don't do this in any other sport even though the competition may not be equal year to year. How do they award points in track or cross country?
ReplyDeleteThen go play that sport...get out of swimming. swimming is where the kids can choose themselves when they hit the wall. earn it!
ReplyDeletenot entitlement...
Clearly this person does not understand that the comments are for peoples opinions and it is not to attack others. We are trying to get an idea of how people feel about the current scoring system. Your welcome to state your opinion....but your not welcome to attack others!
ReplyDeleteDE leads and has an excellent selection process for top swimmers and swimmer of the year. It is rare when a body of work is free from the trappings of politics...and power building individuals.
ReplyDeleteI do not want to be like other states...I want to be the first state!!!!